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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Christian: Hello, and welcome to this month's episode of Reed Smith's podcast, Inclusivity Included. My name is Christian Castile, and I am the guest host of this month's episode. I am here joined today by Joe Maguire and Emily Chang, and we are going to be discussing the evolution of LGBTQ+ inclusive language, focusing on the term queer as a prime and driving example, but looking sort of across the board, a different language that we use. I'll get into a little bit of the history of that term and some other terms, but as we are getting started here I'm gonna toss it over to Emily and Joe to give us a little bit of introduction. So Emily, we'll go ahead and have you start. Can you just share a little bit about your background and what it is that inspired you to pursue a career in the legal industry? 

Emily: Yeah, I'm Emily. I majored in undergrad in hospitality and graduated in 2020. So my job on cruise ships was no longer an option. And I took a semester off and then decided I wanted to go to law school. I had taken a hospitality law class and I had loved it. It was definitely the right move. And I am studying for the bar and joining the firm in Dallas soon. 

Christian: That is so exciting. Are you doing anything interesting in between your law school graduation and starting at the firm? 

Emily: I’m going to clerk for a bankruptcy judge in Dallas for a year. 

Christian: That's incredible. Congratulations. 

Emily: Thank you. 

Christian: Joe, I'll pass it over to you. Sort of the same question, if you could just share a little bit about your background and how you came to get involved with Reed Smith and the legal industry more broadly. 

Joe: Sure. So I was an English and philosophy major in undergrad, which was all incredibly useful if I wanted to go into publishing, which I did not. So I ended up going to law school, as many people do, as sort of a default. And I clerked for a couple of years, and then I practiced for a couple of years. And it was clear that it was just not something that I was... I love the law, and I love the learning, I love the words, but the actual practice just just didn't suit. And so I went a different path and worked in law schools and then eventually came to work at the firm. And actually, this week is my 25th anniversary at the firm on the 14th. 

Christian: Congratulations. What a milestone. 

Joe: Thank you. Yes, it's a milestone I don't think anyone ever really expects to hit. It sort of comes as a surprise. So yeah, and it's interesting because my law firm experience was very different from when I was a practitioner to when I was in a role that allowed me to work with lawyers was a different dynamic and one that suited me quite well. 

Christian: Well, I know I speak for many of us here at the firm to say that we're happy to have you in the role that you're in. You do some great work for us, and I know I enjoy working with you. So I'm so pleased to be sitting here with you both today for this podcast episode. And I appreciate the insights that the different perspectives that you just both shared are going to provide for the discussion that we're having. So just really quickly, I thought for anybody who is maybe less familiar with sort of the history of what we're talking about today, we are looking at the word queer as a sort of focal point for the evolution of LGBTQ+ inclusive language. And the reason that we're focusing on that word is because historically queer has seen a lot of change, a lot of development over the way that it's been used, the way it's been perceived in this particular community, most notably sort of starting out as a derogatory term, and then over time being reclaimed as different generations of the the LGBTQ community have really focused on trying to recapture some of that language. So sort of with that in mind, this is a question for both of you again, as well. And we'll go, we'll take this in reverse order. So Joe, if you could open us up here, is there anything that you are comfortable sharing about your LGBTQ experiences, your experience as a member of the LGBTQ+ community? And specifically, what is the language that you use with respect back to your own identity? 

Joe: So I was aware by the time I started school as a kid that I was different. And I had some awareness of what that was about. And I, as an elementary schooler, was mildly fluid from a gender perspective. And so consequently, I was effeminate enough to get the attention of my classmates. And that made me a target. There were other factors in my identity that sort of contributed to that sense of otherness that had nothing to do with sexuality or gender. Going through those experiences, I had a fair amount of confusion about exactly what was going on. And all that seemed to clarify once puberty hit. And it became very clear to me that my identity was male and gay. And that is how I identify now. And that's probably been since about sixth grade. 

Emily: Yeah. And I use she/her pronouns. And I think came out to myself probably in middle school as a product of, I think I grew up in Texas and I think that different sexualities are not presented as an option to you until you learn about them yourself. And I grew up in a time when the internet was very available. And I think that was very useful and educational for me as a young person. And then I came out as so many do to my parents and greater community and when I left for college and could do that and everyone was very receptive, And so it's very nice to have a community here and in the larger, in everywhere I've gone. 

Christian: Emily, it's interesting that you mentioned that, too. That could almost be its entire separate topic, right, of the advent of the Internet and how that has sort of impacted not only the way that, you know, our community has disseminated information and representation, but also how it's impacted the way that we use language. Language, getting sort of to the crux of this episode, I'm curious if either of you are willing to share specifically what the word queer means to you personally, and whether you've had any experiences with that term that sort of informed the way that you interact with it, the way that you perceive it, and your feelings around it. 

Joe: It took me a long time to decide to respond to Christian about whether to do this, because I have, I feel conflicted. As a lover of words, I think queer is a great word. And I've always felt sad that it was hijacked in the way that it has been. And I mean, I went through a period of time where I wanted to be an etymologist. It's still an interest that I have. So despite the fact that I think it's a fabulous word, it's not a word I really ever use. And I certainly don't connect with it as part of my own identity. And while I love the idea of reclaiming words, anytime I've tried to use it, like the word has come out of my mouth, I have not felt comfortable. I'm not 100% positive about what the sort of official definition is in current usage. But, you know, I've heard it used as a an alternative to the sort of alphabet soup of LGBTQIA+, which is certainly a mouthful, and a lot. So I understand the desire to find a term that sort of captures all of that without literally needing to spell it out. But I've also heard it used as a general term for sort of intersection between sort of sexual and gender identities, which that can be a lot to communicate to someone. And so I can understand the need to want to kind of find an accessible term. I think about the term gay, which is sort of used as a catch-all for many sexual orientation identities, but it's a hijacked word and it's a little artificial. So because gay is an old term and it's one that I personally have come to identify with, I sort of try and remind myself on the use of the word queer that it's a little bit like gay and it's just a word that's been selected to try and capture something. But that's the purpose of words. They exist to capture the meaning of something, and it's never going to be quite exact. 

Christian:  Yeah, absolutely. Especially, I think, within this community where there's so much nuance and sort of differences that we can all celebrate about each other. I think precision is definitely something that's difficult. Also hearing sort of from your response there, a little bit of, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like maybe some change over time in, you know, in one direction or another. Or maybe not necessarily directional change, but just some changes in the way that you've perceived that word over time and the way that you've sort of grappled with it. I'm curious if I'm reading that correctly, sort of what stages of your life, if any, that correspond with the way that you've your changes in that perception of that word have come about. 

Joe: So you know obviously it was a common derogatory term in my youth so you know in that in that sense you know there's always going to be an element of trigger quick i mean it's a microsecond but it still exists that i probably you know will never fully lose and i think the evolution over time is to have it began to appear in different places from within the community. And I can't recall the precise time, but I can generally sort of recall when it started to pop up and I had a very negative reaction and I really had to sort of stop and examine that. But I think really my bigger transition was after marriage equality and sort of rights for gays and lesbians were sort of solidified in a variety of areas, legal areas, and societally. And then the sites turned to trans equality. And that just sort of opened up. Sort of before that, I didn't really know any trans people. And so being, knowing, and it's how we all learn and evolve is through our connections with other people. So by becoming connected with people who identified as trans and some of the other parts of the alphabet that I had never known before, I started to understand the challenge between precision, but also just being able to communicate in a general way. And that sort of pushed my evolution in how I see the word. 

Christian: And Emily, I think for you, sort of same question, what does the term queer mean to you personally? And how has your understanding of the use of that word, whether it be for yourself personally or broader from the community perspective? What has that been like for you? 

Emily: Yeah, I, again, did grow up kind of in this weird in-between time of very much when I learned the word as a young person, I knew it had been used in a derogatory way to large swaths of people to disenfranchise them and harm them. But that was never my personal experience. I had never heard the word used in a derogatory way to me or to any of my friends. There were certainly other words that got used, but queer was never one of them. And I do think I was growing up in a time of reclaiming the word. And I think there are lots of benefits to it. I like the idea that especially for kids, for people in middle school who are learning who they are to not have to. Niche down and label themselves when they're still learning who they are and to have this word that I perceive as an umbrella term for just the larger LGBTQ queer community to just be able to say I'm queer and I maybe don't know exactly what that means for me yet but it means that I'm something different than this societal standard I have found very helpful and I know a lot of my peers have found it very helpful and I think in a larger community sense I know several non-binary people who find it just easier than saying gay or lesbian when that doesn't quite identify with the intersection of their gender identity and their sexual identity. And so I know that the word has been harmful to people and have over time spoken to older people and have realized that and certainly don't use it to describe someone who I know is not comfortable with the word. But in my generation, I found it very helpful. And I think a lot of people my age find a comfort in it, almost a sense of security of just this big blanket term that also includes all of us and allows us to refer to the larger community as a whole, kind of as queer. And I think that's really nice. And I also grew up watching the word get used in mainstream media In 2018, when they revived Queer Eye, I know the original Queer Eye, I think, and I didn't watch it at the time, but the early 2000s one, I think that word was being used in an almost subversive way. And in 2018, when it came out, that was just what the show was called. And that's just what we all called it. And I don't know anyone who batted an eye at that, because it was just a very normal part of our vernacular. 

Christian: Yeah, that's a really interesting point with the differences in reaction to pop culture. You know, I didn't even think about Queer Eye, but you're absolutely right. I have a similar, I think, sort of reaction to you when I think about, you know, when we were younger and that show was coming out for the first time versus now. That's a really interesting observation. Joe, I'm curious, do you have any reaction to that as somebody who, you know, maybe was paying more attention to the environment when shows like that were coming around originally? 

Joe: Yeah, it's interesting. I'll just sort of move, start more current and work backwards. You know, so when they when they relaunched, you know, Queer Eye, I did not have any reaction at all to the word, I think, just because it was already like a brand in a way. But when it came out originally, I was I was suspicious of the show. It was it was a show where I avoided it, I think, in part because of the title and a lack of like, I just wasn't sure. Like i knew there were plenty of of gay people involved in the show but i just wasn't quite sure what their take was going to be was it going to be kind of a wink wink not not gay people are just so strange and funny and and so it took me a while to watch it and then i'm like okay i kind of see it so i i agree with emily that there was a lot of subversion going on in in the its original iteration that didn't really exist the second time around because it was sort of like no big deal. 

Christian: Yeah, I think that goes directly to sort of this development of language piece that we're talking about today. It sounds like, you know, listening to the two of you sort of describe your experiences that you, you know, sort of all of us now as we sit here today are on a similar page with the way that we interact with this sort of language. But it's interesting hearing the perspectives coming from sort of two different and distinct places with different and distinct experiences sort of driving those thoughts. I'm curious to focus on, you know, as a community, as a group of folks who do have different identities and are trying to find a way to move forward that involves language that we all feel comfortable with and that describes us all, what are our thoughts on sort of the broader impacts of language, of the word queer, and how are those intersectional identities and things that we're thinking about factoring in. So sort of with that in mind, I'm curious if either of you have encountered in your experiences any challenges or any pushback from folks within the LGBTQ community to the word queer, either because they don't feel that it represents them or because, you know, any other concerns that you've been faced with? 

Emily: I certainly have had interactions with people a little older than me who have a similar reaction to Joe in that the word when they grew up with it wasn't what it means to me now. And so it is a little bit more startling to them to hear on a first brush. And if the conversation continues and it's realized that that's a word that's not just a little new or startling, but is actually gently triggering in the way that it is for many people. It stops being used in that conversation and with that person if they're uncomfortable with it because as much as i like it and as much as i think it is inclusive for the whole community and even if the other person in the conversation thinks that it doesn't change the fact that they have an experience with that specific word that is harmful and and brings back negative associations And I do really like the trend toward inclusive words that don't make people pick niche labels at an early age. I do really like the freedom that broader terms give us. But I do also think there is room for growth or to find different words that across the community, across generations can be a little bit more kind to everyone that are new. We could invent a new word that is all-inclusive that no one has had bad interactions with. I don't know how we would or what that would be, but that's my ideal world for the future of language. 

Joe: That is also my vision, would be to come up with a word that doesn't have baggage associated with it. And I also echo Emily, is that I would love a term, which is sort of how queer is tending to be used to be broad and inclusive, as opposed to the alphabet soup. The alphabet soup also, I think forces, I mean, Emily's coming at it from a person from the perspective of someone who perhaps is still trying to figure out who they are as they're, you know, forming their identity. But I'm also thinking about it in terms of like, just how specific does a person need to be? And I appreciate that, you know, some people have pretty complicated identities around orientation and gender that require not just a word, but maybe a sentence, a few sentences, and that gets very personal very quickly. Particularly because they may be things that the person that they're interacting with may not even be that familiar. They might use the word, and the person that they're speaking with may not even understand what that means. And so the fact that a person is often in the position of having to explain their identity to someone, that's just exhausting. And does someone need that much detail? So I think having an umbrella term that people kind of generally understand that you have an identity that is not 90, what is it, 94% of the population, whatever the current stats are. 

Christian:Yeah, that's a very interesting piece. And I actually think it ties into something that Emily had just said specifically in that last answer that she gave about, I think you used the word freedom, Emily, when you were talking about words like queer and how they afford folks who use those identifiers a little bit more freedom. I'm curious, especially having just listened to what Joe said, if you could elaborate on that a little bit, sort of what you meant by that when you said freedom and, you know, how it ties into some of the things we're talking about today. 

Emily: I definitely agree with Joe in that it gives freedom to not have to disclose parts of yourself that maybe you're not comfortable. Talking to other people about queer is just a very umbrella blanket term that implies that you are not the same as 94% of the population, but you don't have to go into specifically what you feel if you don't want to. I also think it gives freedom for exploration and change. And I think because being queer is not the norm in society, especially for younger people, can be difficult to figure out what that means for you specifically and how you feel and what your identity is. And so to have this umbrella word feels free and safe to me to not have to pick something and then feel nervous later about saying that specific word I chose doesn't fit anymore. And now I need to change what I'm telling people about myself and the stigma that comes with that. And I think the worry for some young people that comes from deviating from the norm already and the deviating from the deviation you decided. And so just saying I'm queer from the jump, it provides, I think, a sense of freedom to learn and grow and a sense of safety in that. 

Christian: Right. And that's so important. And I think, you know, we have now nowadays we have studies suggesting, you know, having freedom as somebody who's growing up and discovering your identity, I think, is so important in, you know, long term success and happiness. I think a big piece of this too, and you both touched on this already, is whether it's queer or whether it's other language, so much of our community's success in speaking with each other is about this idea of person-centered language, which is not specific to the LGBTQ community. But when we are talking about it in that way, using the language that people are using to describe themselves and sort of being willing to go on that journey with folks to the extent that they are, you know, finding out new things about their identities, using new words, sort of being willing to take that linguistic journey with them, I suppose. Joe, earlier, you know, speaking of linguistic journeys, you mentioned that you had sort of a strong negative reaction to the word queer the first, you know, first time, first couple of times that you heard it. And you said that you had to examine that reaction. I'm curious if you'd be willing to to share for us sort of what that process was like for you and what was your impetus to maybe take a step back from the shock or the negative reaction that had you feeling like it was worth examining? 

Joe:  Well, I think any time I have a strong negative reaction to something, I just feel like it's worth examining what's going on. Sometimes it's very obvious, but other times I'm like, hmm, I'm really surprised that I feel so strongly this way. And I think it's partly because I think I've always thought it's a cool word. I mean, just the sound and in a way that like faggot, for instance, not a cool word. It just doesn't sound cool. it doesn't have like there's it doesn't have any uniqueness to it it's very harsh and so you know as i dug deeper into it i realized this that it and i love the idea of reclaiming words but there are a couple things that that sort of went on for me one was it was a little bit shocking because it was a word that you're not supposed to say and then people are saying it and there are other or reclaimed words in other communities. I know African Americans who have a very strong negative reaction to the use of the N-word by anyone, whether they are part of the African American community or not. And then I think there's also this other piece that is a challenge in reclaimed words, which is why it would be lovely for, and I think we will eventually evolve to a term that doesn't have baggage, but the challenge is who can use the word, right? It's It's been reclaimed, but who, who's allowed to use it and when, and, um, I think anytime you have a word that people are unsure, they're unsure about what it means exactly and who is allowed to use it, that creates a barrier. It's no longer inclusive. It's really quite exclusive. And that's a danger that I, you know, that I see. And I have to kind of think about like, if I start using it, how do I feel if other people, say an ally or just a random person on the street, uses it? Yeah, I'm still not 100% sure about how I feel. 

Christian: It's definitely a key topic to sort of conceptualize for sure. It's interesting, right, when you think about this discussion too in terms of other communities outside of the LGBTQ+ community, right? And so I'm thinking about the way that other marginalized groups have their own language issues that come up. I'm curious if either of you have ever found yourself in an experience where you were either more comfortable or more informed about using language, that is specific to a marginalized group because of your experiences with words like queer and sort of the dynamic nature of LGBTQ+ language. I think that Joe makes a really good point about who can use words and when and how that is concerning in a lot of ways. And I think that having a lot of friends in different marginalized communities, I don't necessarily use words that maybe they have reclaimed or that they would use for themselves. Because if I'm not part of those communities, it doesn't feel like my place to use them. But to me, the queer community is broader. And again, I think as someone who hasn't experienced that word being used in a derogatory way and who has only ever encountered the word in a generally pretty positive way, it makes me feel more comfortable. If that's how I describe myself openly and my friends from other marginalized communities use that word for me, I don't mind it as much, especially, I think, because I know that they have a history with words that impact them. And so I'm more likely to understand that their intent with that word is positive and to support me and the way that I use that word. And they don't ever mean it in a derogatory way because they understand the power that words have. And I think that that kind of intersectionality is important. And I also think that the queer umbrella is so broad and encompasses so many other marginalized communities that there is a lot of interplay between different communities and the words that we use. 

Joe: I would say from my perspective, I'm very sensitive to words. So I try and really pay attention to the words that people are using for themselves and about their community. I just pay a lot of attention. I will occasionally do the bystander thing, not just for our people within the queer community who have an identity I don't identify with, but are perhaps a topic of conversation. But also for other communities and to just highlight, you know, in a low key way, why a particular language that's being used might be problematic. And I'm not talking about slurs. I'm thinking about having been in a conversation about for the Latin community and the use of Latinx versus Latino / Latina, and just being thoughtful about the words that are used. And the fact that communities are not monolithic, I mean, we, by definition, are very broad, but within other marginalized communities, there's a broad range of identities that people hold, and language reflects that. And one of the problems with language is it's kind of a general label that works well a lot of the time, but it's going to chafe a number of people who are part of that community and people who the label is applied to. And I use that labeling not in a negative way, but just it's a term that's used to refer to them. 

Christian: Yeah, and I think that's critical, right? That point about, you know, communities not being a monolith. So there's always going to be a certain amount of struggle. But I think what I'm hearing from both of you is that, you know, sort of grappling with language in the way that you have as a member of the LGBTQ community has given you sort of insights and an ability to think critically about language in other settings and as used by other groups as well. In a way that is really empathy forward, which I think is really awesome and something that is important for us as we move forward in this D&I space. I think that puts us at right about time. Emily and Joe, it has been an absolute pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Thank you everybody so much for listening to this month's episode of Inclusivity Included. We at Reed Smith are always happy to have you as listeners. I hope you all had a good time today and learned a lot. Thank you. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not  guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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