Transcript:

Intro: Hello and welcome to Arbitral Insights, a podcast series brought to you by our International Arbitration Practice lawyers here at Reed Smith. I'm Peter Rosher, Global Head of Reed Smith's International Arbitration Practice. I hope you enjoy the industry commentary, insights, and anecdotes we share with you in the course of this series, wherever in the world you are. If you have any questions about any of the topics discussed, please do contact our speakers. And with that, let's get started.

Gautam: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to our Arbitral Insights podcast series. And our latest edition is going to be another very informative and fun one, I am sure. I'm very delighted to say our guest today is Manini Brar. Hello, Manini.

Manini: Hello, Gautam. Hi. Gatuam: It's great to see you again. It's wonderful to see you. The last time I saw you was in Delhi during Global Arbitration Review's Delhi Live and as part of Delhi Arbitration Weekend. And it's lovely to see you again. Thank you for agreeing to be part of this podcast.

Manini: Like I said before, when we were leading up to this, this seems to be a podcast which is very popular and has a loyal following. So I'm very happy to be here. But the other is that we got along so well over that dinner over Delhi Arbitration Week that I'm seeing this as a bit of a two-way exchange where I get some insights from you as well. So that's part of my motivation.

Gautam: Well, that's wonderful to hear. And I hope I won't disappoint you. I will do my best to achieve what you hope that we could achieve in the course of this podcast. And I really am over the moon that we're doing this one together. I have a lot of admiration for you, Manini, and that's why I'm so happy that we could have you on this podcast. As I always do, I'm going to give a quick introduction to you as our guest. So Manini is a dual qualified lawyer. She's qualified in India and in England and Wales. She has worked in a variety of places and gained much experience. So both in private practice... She's worked with senior advocates in India. She's worked at arbitral institutions. She's been involved as a tribunal secretary on a number of occasions. And in 2021, set up her own chambers in Delhi called Arbridge Chambers. And is not only a wonderful counsel, but is one of that rare generation, which I love to see, female arbitrators of ethnic origin. And I make no bones about it I love that so that's a quick introduction to you Manini I hope I've done you justice in that introduction I could never do you justice because I need to take 10 or 15 minutes to go through all your wonderful accolades but I hope that's uh at at least a good summary for our listeners.

Manini: No no this is great because when I hear it back it sounds you know so much better than when one has lived it.

Gautam: Well, I can assure you, you've achieved a lot. And in the course of this podcast, we are going to explore, I hope, a fair bit of the things that I mentioned. And I mean, I guess a really appropriate way to start this is what inspired you to the law in the first place?

Manini: So just a bit of background, I was in an all-girls school where I was the head of the debating society. So I loved to debate and I really thought I was going to get into an area which involved more public service. And what I had in mind at the time was journalism. And my father looked at me when I told him that and said, that's all right. But if you're expecting me to fund your professional journey through journalism.

Gautam: That's a good leveler, right? That's a good leveler.

Manini: So I said, okay, what is it that I can do where I will be immediately qualified to help the larger public good? And for me, it was an easy choice. It was becoming a lawyer. And then I got to law school and within a month of being there I knew that this is something that I wanted to do and I've never looked back. Gatuam: Now that's great and you know I suppose in many ways lawyers are in some part journalists right because we tell stories right so I dare say that in the context of your legal career you have also borne out your journalism dreams I'm sure you have. You know, one of the things that we all benefit from in the course of our careers are wonderful people who mentor and inspire us. And I know that I've got a number of people who've held those roles for me. And I'd be really interested, and I know our listeners would be, if you could just share with us some of those people who've been your greatest mentors and inspirations in your career so far.

Manini: You know, I have a slightly different experience with finding a mentor only because I don't belong to a legal family and I have actually no one in my family is a lawyer and we're not even remotely connected to business. My dad was a cop. He was an IPS officer in India. So I sort of went through this journey a bit on my own. And as much as I would have loved to have one particular person who I could have, you know, tugged along with and had the benefit of the experience, that is something that I never, a point that I never really got to. But what did happen for me is that. Almost all the people that I worked with were very high level professionals. And not only the seniors that I worked with, but also my colleagues. And so I've had the good fortune of really meeting inspiring people who have set the bar very high in terms of what is expected of a lawyer and what is the kind of professional etiquette that you should have. And that is something that I have taken with me from different people at different points of time in different ways and sort of held on to. So the seniors that I worked with at the bar, some of the lawyers, some of the colleagues that I've worked with, they've been very helpful. But for me, I think the most inspiring thing has been a bunch of people who didn't know me, who had no relationship with me, who had not mentored me, not helped me, not been in touch with me professionally, but who found me out to help a total stranger. So my professional journey is one which is full of these amazing instances of... Goodwill of generosity from total strangers and that I find is something that I would really like to give back in future and I try to every day. You know I try and I try and seek out the people who I think are meritorious and I try and sort of take them along if they need any help or if there's any way that I can help them I try and do that because I know that there have been so many people who have done that for me.

Gautam: You know, that in itself is really inspiring and uplifting to me, Manini. I must tell you, you know, and I'm going to just spend a few seconds because you did say to me, and I'm not one to turn down a request from you, that you wanted to hear a little bit of my thoughts. And, you know, so one thing I love is you're also first generation, I'm first generation. There was no one I could turn to. No one gave me a leg up. No one gave me any favors or anything on a plate. And I had to discover the law for myself and everything. So, I mean, I know that your family has always been a great inspiration to you. My family, of course, has been a great inspiration to me and continues to be. But also, I think professionally, it's very interesting. There have been some people along my career that I've known for the last, you know, I am older than you, over the many, many years that I've I've been doing all of this, but you know, there are some people who I look back on and who, I mean, there was, it's some people who I didn't even meet who inspired me. And I think I want to dwell on that for a few seconds, because I remember when I was very junior, there was a, someone called Shashi Rajani, who at that time, and I've never met Shashi, but he, when I began in 1991 in a law firm, he was already a senior partner in a city law firm in London. And that was a really peculiar thing, right? To see someone like that, of that age, of that level of experience at that time was really something. And that inspired me to want to be like him. The other person who inspired me at that time in 1991 is I heard of a certain person who became a very, very dear friend of mine and a great mentor of mine. And who unfortunately we lost in February of this year, Fali Nariman. I didn't meet Fali until a lot later, but I came to know of him through reading about him back in the early 90s. And I thought to myself, I really want to be like him. So it's really interesting. And I won't dwell on other people because we haven't got time, but there are so many people I owe a huge debt of gratitude to. But it's those people who I I heard about, I read about in the early stages of my career, who really gave me the drive to try to be something. And I'll always be grateful to all of them. And Uncle Fali remains, even though he's now left us, a huge inspiration to me.

Manini: Can I just add to that, that, you know, one of the first things I did when I enrolled at the bar in 2010 was I went to court number one, which is the chief's court in the Supreme Court. And I sat there during the lunch recess just to sort of take it all in and you know there were these big so they have these portraits of all the chief justices and then and then of one particular judge who had done the country a great favor during the emergency and I was sitting there and I was looking at their portraits and feeling very inspired and then lunch recess got over and the first matter that came up was one where Fali was arguing. So we have that in common. I have been thoroughly inspired by him. And then I bought his book and I got someone to help me get his autograph on it. And so I read Before Memory Fades and it's one of the most influential things in my life.

Gautam: Oh, I agree. That book, I've got a signed copy myself of that book. And it still inspires me just to read some of those stories, anecdotes and stuff so no no it's wonderful well no I mean and I say it's nice to know that and I probably wouldn't have found that out but for this podcast with you so that's a really nice thing. So now one of the things that you've done really well is you you've gained a lot of experience in the field of arbitration. As a practitioner, as a tribunal secretary, with institutions, and now as a practitioner and arbitrator. But how did you first discover arbitration? Or how did arbitration discover you?

Manini: So I joined a litigating lawyers chamber back in 2011, about 13 years ago. It was one of the beginning, starting years of my practice. And I thought that I was going to go to court every day. But in about the third week of my being there, these three very thick binders landed on my table. And there were three different arbitrations regarding very complex hydropower project. And so for the one, one and a half years that I was associated with that chamber, I worked only on that matter. And then I said, okay, this is something that I enjoy because I really feel that as compared to court litigation, a lot visibly happens in an arbitration over good, careful drafting, over good structured arguments. And it is, shall I use the word, but a very equitable way of resolving disputes. So I was attracted to that. And then I decided to study further and do my master's in Cambridge, where I studied dispute resolution in particular. And from then on, there was no looking back. I worked as a research assistant with one of my professors, and he was kind enough to recommend me to the ICC. And I think that was when I absolutely fell in love with the practice all over again. Because one thing that the ICC taught me, and you've referred to my various experiences, is that you have to absolutely know the process and what is market best practice before you feel confident enough to start giving your opinion about it or to start using that as a legal skill or to use that to advise other people. So I think the repetition of the tasks that we had to do every day at the ICC is really where I learned that. So I said, before I start my own practice, I need to know what this whole scene is about the litigating lawyer who's doing arbitration, about the arbitration chambers that are only doing the arbitration hearings but not appearing in court, about the involvement of the government. Because a lot of arbitration in India is government facing. It's either government contracts or it has one element involving a government tender. And so I made it my mission to sort of get a perspective on everything before I felt like I was confident enough to, you know, branch out on my own.

Gautam: Well, well, fabulous. And that's a perfect segue to asking you about branching out on your own, because I mentioned mine in the introduction. That you are the founder of Arbridge Chambers in Delhi. And you founded that chambers in 2021. And so just tell us a little bit about, what drove you to set up your own chambers? And, you know, tell us a little bit about Arbridge Chambers in terms of your team, and the sorts of work that you're currently involved in, of course, no names, of course, because we all respect confidentiality, but the sorts of things that you and your team are doing.

Manini: So Arbridge Chambers happened because, like I said, I always wanted to get into independent practice and have a setup of my own. And the constant struggle for me was, of course, one was being sure that I know everything that I need to know, that I have the skill and the wherewithal. But the other was also that every time I spoke to someone about setting up an independent arbitration practice, they said, well, why don't you do it in a firm? You know, because firms have larger teams, they're dealing with bigger projects, and it will be easier for you to do more meaty arbitrations. And I thought that in India in particular, the firm setup inevitably involves engaging a separate council for the court-facing part of the arbitration. Most often than not, although now that is changing, but that was the setup then. And I said, I don't want to be in that system where I have to choose between which part of the arbitration I'm involved in. And so that wasn't working for me and the other thing that people said a lot was that you know you're going to be a small fish in a really big pool and I looked around myself and there were so many practitioners who were male who had their own independent practices and were identifying as arbitration practitioners and I just wondered why is it that there are no women doing this. So for me, I said, let's see, you know, that was my thought process that if it doesn't work in, say, three years or five years, I will go back and I'll do something else. But if it does work, then great kudos for us. And so I set up a chamber where the people who work for me also see themselves as independent advocates. So we work together on matters that, for example, are mine. But I also encourage them to take on independent work. And the idea is very much like a chamber for everybody to eventually develop into their own practitioner. When I started I must tell you I started in the January or January of 2021 and that is the month that I found out that I was pregnant with my first child. So I left and I thought that no I’m going to focus on client facing business development and I have so much work to do and about 15 days after I made this announcement that i'm starting in my chamber, I found out I was pregnant. And then I just kept thinking for another couple of months, how I'm going to do it. And, you know, how is this thing going to come about? And one day I was walking very furiously on my evening walk, thinking of all this and thinking, maybe this is a really bad time. Maybe I should park it for another three years. And I got a call from the Delhi High Court, from a judge who said, I have read some of your published articles on arbitration and I have a really small arbitration that I'm looking for an arbitrator for and would you be interested and this is you know one of those people who who has no connection with me I spoke earlier about the generosity of strangers and that's how I started my practice he gave me two matters one one was the small arbitration another one was a batch matter which had 18 connected arbitrations. And that actually sustained me through those initial phases of my practice.

Gautam: Now, that's a great story. That really is. I mean, you know, there's so much in there, which I love. First of all, you had the courage and the desire to set up your own chambers and your own practice. Number two, you weren't put off by people saying that you'd be a small fish in a big pond. I love that. Number three, you said that there were lots of men in their own chamber, so why shouldn't there be a woman? I love that. And I love also, amongst other things, that point you just made about a stranger to you, a judge who rang you up and said, look, I've read your publications, which just shows it's really worthwhile to all the younger lawyers listening on this podcast. You can never start publishing too early. Always love the law, love the practice, write about it, add to knowledge. That's really important. Now, the fact that you did that, Manini, led to that lovely circumstance that you got these matters and then that helped you. And it's just, no, there's a lot in there that's very inspirational. And, you know, well, look, thank goodness you didn't get put off and you've certainly made a great success. So, you know, as I know, our listeners will, of course, know from you and everything you stand for. So, no, that's really interesting. And also the point that you mentioned about how you love to see colleagues of yours branch out themselves. I think that's another thing. I mean, again, I'm going to use your request to me to say a little bit about my perspective to what you say. I think that's so important. You see, you have to want people who work with you, not just to equal you, but to surpass you, right? And there's no point looking to help people and benefit people and mentor people, inspire people, if you don't want them to do really, really, really well. And so I love that message from you, Manini, there. You covered a lot of ground in that last answer, and I loved it. So then, now that you're a counsel and an arbitrator, I wanted to get your perspectives on, you know, what are the key skills that you think an arbitrator really absolutely has to have?

Manini: You know, so this journey of trying to be both and wear both hats is actually a very challenging one. And I have immense respect for people who have done it before me and done it so well. Because when you're practicing in India, especially, for example, in a high court like the Delhi High Court, which has very high stakes and it's one of the most highly regarded courts in the country, you'd– on on an everyday basis you have about 50 to 60 matters listed before a particular judge so you have about three minutes to make your point and you have to do it in spite of the other lawyer sort of also trying very desperately to make his point so the entire skill involved is is to be quick, to be to the point, and to get the relief that you want loudly and quickly. And when you're being an arbitrator, the thing that you have to do is park that argumentative side of your personality completely and stop judging the matter for its merits, before they are presented to you. That essence of being a neutral, of not having an opinion about either the people who are appearing before you or the case the merits of the case that they may have without actually looking at their pleadings and and keeping a balanced view is really the the core of what you're expected to do and it is drastically different from how you think as a counsel so I think for me that is the most important thing. I don't try and go behind the party's intentions when I'm wearing the arbitrator hat. I don't try and go behind, well, why are they putting this counsel forward to argue or why did he time his application in this particular way? I don't get into that unless it is argued before me. So that's what I try and do. And I think that has worked for me so far. And it has helped me to resolve disputes efficiently because we don't get caught up in the rigmarole that a lot of, I think, other people sometimes get stuck with.

Gautam: Yeah, no, I'm again, I couldn't agree more. And I think you're so right. It's just that approach. You know, when we were at GAR in Delhi together last month, you would have met, I hope you would have met Sadaf Habib, who was one of the other panelists on another panel that you weren't on at GAR. And one of the things that she mentioned about her experience as an arbitrator was about having empathy and trying to be balanced in the approach that you give and feeling, as always, that each side has the ability to feel that, you know, okay, they might have won, they may have lost, but they've been fairly heard, that they've been respectfully heard, and they've been empathetically heard. And I think that's a really important point which you've touched on there. And I think that's such an, that really, I think that's one, from my perspective, I think that's one of the things that differentiates arbitrators, because people do know who the very decent ones are in terms of character, personality, and their traits. Now, one thing I want to ask you about, Manini, is you and I both know that there are happily many more women like you coming through as arbitrators, but there aren't enough of them, right? And I think we can agree on that. There are not enough. And I know that you're also a massive champion of diversity, equality and inclusion and the advancement of women. And we, of course, I mean, I have the privilege of sitting with you on the advisory board of Indian Women in International Arbitration. And we both share that passion for the advancement of women. But in terms of. From your perspective, what more can the community do to ensure that more women get those opportunities, more women get appointments as arbitrators, more women get the recognition they deserve? What more can we do?

Manini: I think this conversation has to start somewhere from recognizing the multiple roles that women play in society and recognizing that success is not a unidimensional thing. It's not really about making it to the 40 under 40 list or having your name up on Chambers and Partners when when your male colleagues are also there because you take time out as a woman you take time out to have a family you take time out to you know set up your marriage and you make decisions around those life choices so i think one of the things that absolutely needs to happen is the conversation needs to shift towards gender inclusivity in the sense of really understanding that the two genders perform very different roles in society and factoring that in when you measure success. For example, I have not set myself up for these unreasonable standards of, for example, being a senior counsel in the Delhi High Court by the age of 42. It's simply not something that I aspire towards, because I know that there are other facets to my life that I also want to take care of. And towards that, towards gender inclusivity, I think. Judges who are appointing arbitrators, institutions who are appointing arbitrators, parties who are appointing arbitrators, have to recognize that simply because a woman is not visible at every networking event or at every panel discussion doesn't mean that she's not capable or not interested. It's just that in a day, she has to do so many other things. And sometimes the priorities are different. On a particular day, your children need you more than work does. And so I know that there's a lot of pressure on being visible within the arbitration community. But I think there needs to be a certain amount of flexibility there. I mean, the example of the judge that I gave you before, right, he made the effort of going online to look at who were the new people, young arbitrators who were publishing or people who were talking about arbitration or were visible online, which kudos to him, he could have, you know, asked his juniors about who they met at the last conference who looked like a promising person, but he didn't, He made that extra effort and I think that is what we all need to do. As an arbitration community, we need to seek out women, because sometimes they're just held back by circumstances, and not really by a desire to, you know, hold back. Gatuam: I couldn't agree with you more. And I know, I just think that's, again, so inspirational. And, you know, people like you, that's what people, you are real role models for so many people, because you live and breathe those values and those aspirations and those beliefs. And, you know, and I know many people who listen listen to this podcast will feel that too.Now regrettably we've come to the - please is that something else you want to mention Manini?

Manini: Yes I actually want to ask you Gautam that when you I know that you're you know also such a champion of diversity the fact that we're doing this podcast in some way is you know your step to put more people on the map and i want to ask you What is it that you see in the people around you as a quality that they should have to help diversity or to bring the community together?

Gautam: Yeah, well, look, you know, thank you for that question. I think, you know, I just think that people need to be generous in their outlook. And I use that word because I think generosity is something that's very important. I think as people get more senior, more experienced, they owe it. A bit like you said earlier on in this podcast about giving back. We need to ensure that we leave our arbitration community, our legal community, our litigation community, our legal community a better place than when we arrived in it. Because one of the sayings that I remember reading many years ago was, the legal profession graces us. Lawyers don't grace the legal profession. And I think it's very important you look at it in that way, that you need to ensure that people get opportunities, not least because not everyone comes from a privileged background. Not everyone comes from the best schools, the best universities. Some people haven't got the best general knowledge, whatever you want to say. Some people haven't traveled as much as other people. But there's a real diversity in that. Some of the best people I've ever met and I've ever worked with. Are people who are unconventional, who aren't from a straight line, this background, that background. And I think that's when you've got to say a bit like you yourself said, and I'm going to steal one of your lines here, when you see good and you seek out people, because some people will actively come to you for mentorship and for help. But many people won't do that because they're not sure, they're afraid, you know, they're a bit uncertain about it. Make it easy for them, be generous and reach out to people and make sure that you leave the legal atmosphere that you've joined a much better place when you leave it. So that's what I would say. And I try to do that in the best way that I can. I'm not perfect by any means, but that's what I try to do.

Manini: Inspiring. Thank you for that. That's a good tip. I'm taking it back, generosity.

Gautam: No, thank you for asking me. And just so everyone knows on this podcast, these questions, which Manini are asking me are completely unscripted and I had no idea but I'm but I'm grateful to you for asking that to me. So we have regrettably come to the end of our podcast I could talk to you for hours Manini because there's so much we could talk about and and the dinner that we sat in together in Delhi last month as you yourself kindly said was a really really nice nice occasion. And I honestly could have spent hours just talking to you on many things. But we always end these podcasts with a bit of fun. And this podcast is no exception. So I want to ask you, what's your favorite sort of music? Have you got a favorite singer, a favorite group? So tell us about that.

Manini: You know, these days, I've been spending a lot of time in my village in Punjab because of my kids. I like to take them there as much as I can because it's open and it's green. So I'm immensely immersed in Punjabi music. And these days, my favorite is Ali Sethi, who's a Pakistani singer. He's done some fantastic things in the past couple of years, and he's been to Coachella, and he's, you know, basically rocked the Punjabi music world. So I love that. Yeah, that's what I'm living by.

Gautam: I love all that stuff. I mean, I yeah, yeah, no, know and you know I yeah I love that you know it's great to have that because it is great music someone who's played at Coachella has to be pretty cool as well just so everyone knows and the last quick question to you have you got a favorite travel place where you like to go with your husband and your children?

Manini: It's actually London, London is my favorite. So yeah i think i think we have a lot in common more than more than the law beyond the law I love being in London because my sister is there and I love to shop and it's my shopping, and the other is home, Punjab. If I can get away from Delhi, it's either London or Punjab. These are my two options.

Gautam: Well, dare I say, you know, one of the things I remember my dad saying many years ago is how proud he was that the rivers of Bengal ran so deep in his veins. And I dare say you would also say that you're very proud that the rivers of Punjab run deep in your veins. So, well, look, So it's been an absolute delight to do this podcast with you, Manini. Thank you very much for doing it. I've genuinely enjoyed it. I've been uplifted, inspired by you. I just think that our listeners will absolutely love hearing your perspectives and the enthusiasm and the drive that you bring to so many things. And I just want to end by saying, you know, very well done for everything you've achieved so far, and I wish you all continued success. So thank you again, Manini.

Manini: Thank you so much. Thank you, Gautam, for having me. And I hope outside of this podcast, we're going to continue these conversations because I'm always looking to talk about.

Gautam: We will. It's a promise. Thank you.

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