Transcript: 

Intro: Hello and welcome to Arbitral Insights, a podcast series brought to you by our International Arbitration Practice lawyers here at Reed Smith. I'm Peter Rosher, global head of Reed Smith's International Arbitration Practice. I hope you enjoy the industry commentary, insights and anecdotes we share with you in the course of this series, wherever in the world you are. If you have any questions about any of the topics discussed, please do contact our speakers. With that, let's get started.

Gautam: Hello, everyone and welcome back to our Arbitral Insights podcast series. And I am delighted today to have us our guest none other than Cyril Shroff. Hello, Cyril.

Cyril: Hi. Hi Gautam.

Gautam: It's great to see you as always. Now, Cyril is someone who really needs no introduction. If you just say Cyril, everyone knows it's him. But I'm going to tell you a little bit about Cyril because I've had the joy of knowing Cyril for a very long time and he's, he's a very special person. Cyril isn't just a legendary name in the law in India. He's a legendary name in the law globally and rightly so, uh he is an incredibly highly respected practitioner in many areas. Of law, particularly corporate securities banking, insolvency and infrastructure. He also started out as I'm sure Cyril, you will tell us in the course of our discussion as a disputes lawyer. And Cyril still has an incredible knowledge and reputation in that field such that most recently to add to his many accolades, he was appointed to the board of directors of the Singapore International Arbitration Centre, SIAC something we'll speak about in the course of this podcast. Cyril is the managing partner of Cyril Amarchand Mangaldas, India's leading law firm. It has offices all around India. Cyril himself is based in Mumbai, the wonderful city of Mumbai and the firm not too long ago, opened an office in Singapore and I'm sure there'll be more expansion uh strategies in Cyril's mind, but CAM as it's known is rightly regarded as one of the premier law firms globally, not just in India, it's a firm that, you know, many of our listeners will know very well and I'm sure many of our listeners will have heard of Cyril, have come across Cyril, worked with Cyril, met Cyril. He really is an incredible thought leader in so many respects. So, Cyril, it's a real privilege for me despite having known you for such a long time to be doing this podcast with you. It really is a personal honor. So thank you for joining this podcast.

Cyril: Thank you, Gautam and that was very, very kind of you. Of course, I have known you for now almost three decades and it's been an absolute joy and privilege and thank you for inviting me for this. So I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Gautam: Thank you. I certainly am too. So let me start with this Cyril. Tell us a little bit about who in the course of your long and illustrious career so far in over, in over four decades of practice, um who have been your greatest career mentors and inspirations.

Cyril: That's a great question. Uh Gautam. So as you know, I come from a family of a long lineage of, of lawyers. So the the the firm was founded by my grandfather. So I think it kind of is very natural to assume that some of my primary mentors were from the family and in particular, my uh my late father and who the firm of course, was uh very different during his time. But uh he, he was probably the one who influenced uh my professional personality the most because he was uh extraordinarily hard working and a brilliant lawyer and I worked closely with him. So I think as far as my at least my lawyer personality and uh professional personality is concerned, I think he influenced it uh a lot and some of the lessons uh the sort of basic lessons of life that I learned with him continue uh to be a big part of uh my thinking even today. So I think I would say, like, you know, 50% of the kind of mentorship bucket would definitely go to him. I never met my grandfather, but I think he, he's probably his value system percolated through uh through my dad. So that's, I think part one. And then of course, uh you know, there is a whole miscellany of uh of mentors, both lawyers and otherwise who have worked with because, you know, in, in, in a career of uh 40 plus years, you, you come into contact with so many different people, you come into contact with uh leading businessmen, with uh with bureaucrats, with politicians, with uh just thinkers and philosophers and you know, so many different people. And you think you, I think you learn something from every one of them. But some of the uh folks who had a influence on me have been some of the leading industrialists because uh you know, their evolution also coincided with uh with the growth of India as well. And the concept of, of scale, the concept of believing in the India proposition, the concept of believing in, you know, next and younger generations as well. All of these, I think I probably learned from some, some of my big clients as well. And then I get inspired by all sorts of different non conventional forces as well. I think art is a big inspiration for me, art and artists. So uh when you look at um you know, some of the leading uh artists, whether you know, and depending on whether they're painters or sculptors or whoever, and you go a little deeper and look into their life story. I think you, you learn a lot from them. So uh it's, and these are not necessarily direct mentors of mine who kind of sit and mentor me, but people from whom I have learned. So I think that and I think uh every person including you, we, we are all a collection of the different experiences uh that we've had with people and everything that we've learned or unlearned as well. So you, your collective totality of your persona is made up of all of this and that would be true in my case as well.

Gautam: Thank you, Cyril for that. We are all, as you say, a product of many people and uh and fascinating to hear what you said there, as I mentioned in, in, in the introduction, Cyril, you recently last, well, just in October of 23 you were appointed to the board of directors of SIAC and that's a wonderful accolade. It's great for SIAC. It's great for CAM. It's great for India. It's great for India's role in the world of arbitration. If you could just tell us a little bit about what your membership of the board of CAC entails and how you see that role playing out for you.

Cyril: So, uh Gautam in the, in the introduction, you mentioned that I started off my professional career as a disputes lawyer. That is correct. I think almost for the 1st 10 years, uh I did only disputes work. I became a transaction lawyer almost a decade after kind of starting off. And that experience and knowledge uh is something which I hold quite dear to myself even today. And even as we look at, uh you know, as a corporate governance situations or even just advising our clients on transactions, there's always one part of your brain that is looking at things from a disputes point of view of what could go wrong in this as well. So that's the, the disputes uh sort of DNA that it kind of got embedded at a very early stage in me. Now, that being said after the early nineties, after India liberalized uh in, in 1991 then onwards, I would say I kind of made a shift and pivoted more to the transactional side. And uh and I have been sort of doing that since then though I occasionally do get involved in sort of large corporate uh the corporate disputes. So, uh I think that the SIAC invited me and I think it's for them to really say why they invited me. But I can only guess it was not for my uh experience as a disputes lawyer though, of course, that might have been in the background, I think given who CAM is uh and my leadership position in this what I bring to the table. Uh as a, as a sort of corporate lawyer as, as a kind of a leading corporate lawyer is really the knowledge of India and the Indian market. Now, India is incredibly important to the SIAC it is important because firstly, the number of disputes that uh India is on either side of it, then also in terms of just the rise and rise of India as an economy, I think in the last decade or so, we've seen that story going from strength to strength. So it is important that the uh the, the SIAC has someone who understands the market and can so to speak, deliver the, the market and give it that kind of local presence uh that may be required. Now, that being said, SIAC is an extremely well known and popular institution in India, but there is obviously something more that they must have assumed that I can add and speaking for myself in terms of my role, you asked me about my role. Uh It's just been recently, it's just been a few months. So currently I'm listening and learning and I think uh what I will do in terms of, you know, going forward is to bring a knowledge of where uh the institution can do better in terms of the corporate world, in terms of, you know, government and policy makers as well. It's a, it's a land of enormous opportunity and it is also becoming very competitive. There are so many institutions that have been setting up and there is more coming whether in GIFT City or in Hyderabad, which already has an institution as well. So whilst navigating the complex Indian arbitration space, which is only growing, I think from SIAC’s point of view, they have a uh ally in me. And from my point of view, I think it's uh uh ability to contribute to India's reputation as a world class, you know, marketplace, uh which is willing to recognize the need and uh uh need and the efficacy of international institutions like the SIAC so, but it's while it's still early days, it's uh quite exciting. And uh as I said, uh I'm still learning.

Gautam: Well, that's, um now that's very interesting and I've got no doubt that you'll be making a huge impact on the board of SIAC, especially because as, and this blends into the next thing I wanted to ask you a given India's potential. It's now the world's fifth biggest economy. It's growing. It's a, it's, it's got a very progressive culture, but as we know disputes happen and they're an inevitable fact of commercial life. And India has ambitions to become an arbitration hub.

Cyril: Yes.

Gautam: It's been openly stated at the highest levels of government in India. India wants to become that hub and frankly, I agree with that. And as you know, I've spoken publicly at conferences in support of this, um but I, I just wonder from your perspective, if you could give your thoughts on these two themes, what are your, what's your vision for the development of arbitration in India, or I should say the continued development of arbitration in India? And secondly, what do you think needs to happen to make that dream of India becoming an arbitration hub happen?

Cyril: Thanks Gautam. And again, a question in two parts. So uh I mean, first let's start with the dream of India becoming one of the largest economies and a major, you know, economic superpower in in terms of, you know, how the future will develop. So we are in, we have passed the 75 year mark since independence and have described our journey to India @ 100 as Amrit Kaal, which is supposed to be if you could take a metaphor of a human life, uh that it is supposed to be the most productive and the most auspicious period of a person's life and same holds good for the country. So by every indication, applying that analogy, I think uh India is going to see enormous growth across different sectors, whether it's infrastructure, whether it's health care, whether it's technology, whether it's, you know, just public services uh and soft power in terms of the, you know, the entertainment that we provide music, movies, whatever that every aspect of life is meant for and is destined for greater growth. Now, in even so much growth is happening. As you rightly said, there are disputes and one of the sticks that India always gets hit by is the fact that your dispute system is too slow. Your courts are overburdened. You know, it takes decades to get something resolved and that becomes a dampener in terms of the confidence that uh foreign investors have, uh or, you know, just counter parties, commercial, counter parties have when they're dealing with India. So, uh that's something which we have to fix and it keeps coming up not only in individual, you know, negotiations, but it keeps coming up. Also when there is a zoomed out view that is taken, for example, in the World Bank ease of doing business index or you know, any measure there is the one of the minus points that India always gets is your disputes, your enforceability of contracts and dispute resolution needs to do better. So we, I think we are self aware of that as a nation. I mean, the Prime Minister downwards, everybody has mentioned it. The fact that we want to become an arbitration hub is an expression of that intent that we kind of realized that we have a problem here and we want to fix it uh because it is something which is going to have a direct impact on our economic growth. And it's not, not a nice thing always to export all your disputes uh outside India because implicit in that is that, you know, you guys are not able to fix the problem domestically. Now, there will always be a mix of domestic and foreign. But the fact that we need to become more efficient is common ground. So India needs to really up its game on uh uh on you know, faster disposal of disputes and enforceability of contracts. And one obvious outcome of that is uh mediation and arbitration because these are the, the court system can only be stretched to whatever extent it can. Even if you were to double or triple the capacity, it's still not going to solve the problem in terms of just the backlog of uh o of cases which even if you apply a reasonable mathematical ratio, it's gonna take 300 years to dispose of today's backlog. Now that can't be right. So arbitration comes as the obvious solution uh for that with the combination of domestic or uh uh or, or, or international. Now, having set this vision for being a leading arbitration center in the world and the question then becomes, you know how so uh as we are, as we sit today and we are having this conversation, a lot of changes have happened legislatively as well as in terms of leading judgments of the Supreme Court. And it would be fair to say that we are now uh quite an evolved pro arbitration jurisdiction. A lot has happened in the last decade. Uh many amendments in 2015, 19 and uh last year as well. Uh The courts have gone out of the way from, you know, there, there was a period of time when there was some vacillation on this. But today, now I think life is very clear that we are pro arbitration and a lot of uh impediments in terms of efficient arbitration have been taken away. So the foundation I think is well set the second part of your question on, you know, what is, what do we, what does India need to do for making ourselves an even better arbitration hub? So many things, uh I think firstly, it should just continue in the same stream where courts are uh recognizing and honoring the intent to be an efficient arbitration hub. The second, I think a couple of practical suggestions, I think what we need is separate arbitration court and bar so that there is more consistency. We need third party funding which we don't have today. We need the imposition of costs for frivolous appeals and challenges we might need to make mediation mandatory. So as to see if we can cut down disputes, even at that stage, the state and the public sector are the biggest litigants. Uh and a lot of the areas are uh can be placed at that door. So there is a policy and a cultural reform required in terms of how the state should participate in early dispute resolution. And a number of efforts have been made towards that So the state should sort of consider, you know, moving away from ad hoc to uh institutional arbitration, that will be a big change. And there are already some schemes. So, so for example, there is something called the Vishwas. Vivad Se Vishwas, which basically means resolution of disputes through discussion and through negotiation. And it's uh it's a uh it's a, a way of resolving uh disputes where the government is on the, or the state is on the other side. And if you're already a judgment holder, so there's a mechanism by which you could pay a certain percentage of uh uh uh uh or you can settle for a particular percentage of your claim and it's disposed of and you're saved from a whole appellate procedure which could drag on for years. And I think that's an example of a very progressive, innovative idea of breaking down the arrears as well. But again, now zooming out again, in terms of what should be done, I think the efforts of keeping up the pro arbitration spirit. Secondly, a number of tactical reforms like the kind that I mentioned to you. And I think the third is as far as the state is concerned because they account for a large part of the volume is to kind of get them to the, the table and dispose of so that there's no unnecessary litigation. Uh And there are, you know, the reason which we will get to on some other occasion on, you know, why do the state entities, uh, you know, carry everything upwards to the Supreme Court because, uh, you know, there's, uh, there, there's no downside to doing that. Uh, so long as, you know, you, you're, you're fighting it and waiting till, uh, till the highest court. So if you do these three things, I think we'll be making a big impact, uh, in terms of, uh, making India a much more efficient uh dispute resolution and enforcement of contract jurisdiction because that's the bottom line. It's not arbitration for its own sake. It's about enforcing contracts and resolving disputes.

Gautam: Thank you, Cyril. That was a very interesting set of responses to the, to my questions. And I just wonder whether I could follow up with this because I agree everything you've said I'm in, I'm in total agreement with you and I'm a firm believer that India will become that hub. And I think it, and it shouldn't take that long. I mean, people often say, how long will it take? I don't think it should take excessively long to achieve that. But one of the things that I wonder if you could just address is this one of the criticisms that's often leveled at arbitration in India is that very often most of the arbitrators are retired judges and that leads to inordinate delay in the process, truncated hearing slots which suit the judge, but not the parties, the former judge and not the parties. And also if I recall correctly, I don't have the exact date when this happened. But I think there was a recent high profile conference in India where the president of India made a comment that one of the things holding back arbitration is the obsession with appointing judges as arbitrators. So now CAM itself has got a number of excellent lawyers who practice arbitration. And I would have thought as is as is the case in the UK in the US and other countries that seasoned practitioners at leading law firms should be also taking appointments as arbitrator. Now, what do you think about this? Do you think it's a cultural shift that needs to happen? Is there too much deference given to former judges? How do we move the needle on this so that we actually get a much broader base of arbitrators in India? And also we ensure more women are represented as arbitrators in India.

Cyril: Uh Thanks for that. Very, very interesting uh question a couple of things. I mean, firstly, just so that's the psychology of why we've seen more retired judges being appointed as arbitrators. Firstly, a couple of reasons in the past, I know this is changing. One is that practitioners, particularly leading practitioners are too busy. So there is a lack of availability of practitioners who have the time because they are, I mean, either there could be transactional uh lawyers who are busy with um you know that kind of day job or senior advocates who, uh, are also busy in court all of the day. Whereas, uh, retired judges have more availability of time. But again, that's, uh, you know, uh a circular question because then at some stage they become part of the problem. So there are a couple of responses that we need. One is I think there should be a general shift towards more institutional arbitration rather than ad hoc arbitration which involves name judges. On a, on a lighter note, I have seen clauses which say when the arbitration clause which actually says anyone other than a retired judge. So uh it's kind of the the conversation. So that's uh that's a kind of an indication of how this conversation is evolving, but it's not there yet. What are the other solutions? I think younger retired judges, uh because they are kind of more aware of the best practices and maybe willing to kind of move a little faster and they might have, you know, relatively more availability of time. Senior practitioners could also be kind of incentivized to take these roles. Uh And particularly when there's a very specialized kind of uh of dispute and the practitioners have the required background. Uh It's not yet very common. So I think it requires some cultural changes to make that happen. Uh The third part, which is kind of a little away from the, the, the judge's question is the arbitration act as you know, has been amended to provide a maximum period within which the case has to be disposed of, uh, one year. And otherwise there has to be reasons, then you have to get the time extended and all that. So all that I think is also helping. So cumulatively, all of these changes are having an impact. I think in the short run, you will see a bit still more, uh, kind of uh uh the old habits die hard as they say. So you'll still see more judges uh being appointed. But the the the kind of the mood has changed, we are seeing more uh practicing lawyers come in as well. So some of our partners, for example, Shaneen, and you know who uh is an arbitrator, we see her, you know, getting a lot of appointments uh as well and that, that change is happening, but it's a, it's a slow process before you develop. It goes back to the point I made uh a little while ago that we need a uh a larger arbitration bar.

Gautam: Thank you. Cyril, yeah, I think these are debates that will run and run for a while, but I've got no doubt that things will fall into place and I think there'll be so much momentum that at some point things will just happen as they're happening now. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that.

Cyril: Look on the arbitration institutions. Also, we are seeing the rise of so many new arbitral institutions in India, whether it's the MCIA or now the IAMC in Hyderabad or the Indian Institute at, at Delhi as well. Uh There's a new one coming up in, in GIFT City uh in Gujarat. So when you add all of this together, there's a lot and they're all, you know, in the institutional model. So, you know, of course, uh SIAC and other international institutions will have their place and they bring a certain prestige to it. But the the the rise and rise of Indian institutions is also happening concurrently. So I think India is serious about solving this problem. Secondly, there's a regulatory push also. So uh the Securities and Exchange Board of India SAB has recently come out with a circular which requires an online dispute resolution ODR uh using the arbitration method as well. So, you know, the the Indian disputes ocean is large and you can only drink it kind of gulp by gulp. Uh You know, it's, it's very hard to swallow the whole, you know, the ocean in one gulp.

Gautam: Yeah, it's, it's far too much of a gulp for sure, you know. No, no. Well, thank you for that Cyril. It's, you know, it's been a fascinating discussion with you and thank you for sharing your thoughts. So candidly and so interestingly, I, I want to, as I do in these podcasts, I always like to end these podcasts. With some more lighthearted discussion. And I, and we know from our, from our feedback that our listeners really enjoy the lighthearted discussion as much as the more formal discussion in these podcasts. So I want to maintain that tradition and ask you some lighthearted conversation. So I know that you're a doting grandfather, you've got a lot of, you love to play with your grandchildren. But what are you, what are the other things that you do in your spare time that really excite you?

Cyril: So, quite a few things uh I am a big Bollywood buff. I think that's a very well known uh well known fact. And you know, I've always been fascinated by uh how some of the best movies made in India are a reflection of uh of Indian life and culture and you learn a lot from them. So, III I love the movies. I am an unabashed foodie as well. But on a more personal note, one of the things which I like doing though, I don't get enough time uh is painting uh as well. So I like to kind of use the other side of the, of the brain for that. And I find not only therapeutic but I think also creative. And when your one is in the zone trying to create a piece of a piece of art, are you actually fine, actually find that in the week thereafter, my work is better as well. I don't know what the, the, the, the medical or the chemical explanation to that is, but it's a fact. So I do like, sort of doing that. Uh, I love to travel. It's, uh, it's, travel is not the easiest thing in today's, you know, crowded flights and crowded airports, but nonetheless, just seeing new places and, uh, having new experiences, something which I enjoy. And that's a big part of, uh, who I am.

Gautam: On the subject of travel, name, a few places that are particularly dear to you when you do travel.

Cyril: So top of the list of course is London. Uh because apart from being a very interesting uh cultural place, I've always seen this as a sort of an intellectual capital of the world, the sheer variety of people from across different disciplines and not just the law, I mean, there's just so many things that you meet over there on any single trip is incredible that that variety and depth uh hard to find anywhere else. So I think that would be one of the from a city's point of view. But I like uh uh uh you know, very different uh mix of travel as well. So last year we went on our first kind of Maasai Mara Africa safari as well. I found it, I sent you some pictures as well. So that was uh awesome. I also like to go to places which have a lot of historical values. So recently in December, we were in Spain and, you know, quite a lot of time to spend in, in museums, uh and, you know, visiting various and, and seeing various works of art as well. So that's sort of, there's a, so it's a balance between, you know, the more advanced commercial cities as well as just where there is almost no commerce but uh just where you get different life experiences.

Gautam: Thank you, Cyril. Well, it's been an absolute privilege and a pleasure to do this podcast with you. Thank you very much for taking time out to do this with me. I have known you for, um, three decades now. Uh, and, um, every conversation I have with you is always, always contains something I didn't know about you. And, uh which is one of the joys of these discussions and why it's always really nice to talk about these sorts of mutual topics because something new always crops up. And so look, thank you very much for taking time.

Cyril: I have a question for you.

Gautam: Of course, you can.

Cyril: What keeps you going? Because I've seen you, uh, you know, working very hard over so many, so many years as well. And, uh I don't think any signs of, of slowing down as well. What makes Gautam tick?

Gautam: Well, no. Wow. You know, this is, I mean, I, I, I'm delighted to answer your question. It's the first, you know, Cyril, you're, you're also a man of firsts because you're the first podcast guest who's turned the table and asked me a question. So, no, I think it's a, it's, it's, again, it's a multifaceted thing. I owe everything to um my, my, my late parents and they continued to be a great inspiration to me and my desire to make them proud and happy will always be a thing that makes me tick in a big way. Um Secondly, my family who, of course, you know, my wife Emma and our children are a constant source of motivation for me and make me tick and they want to make me do things better because they make me better because they inspire me. Um And thirdly, I just think, um, you know, there's a lot of, we get so much passion from the people we work with and we constantly learn. I mean, I think every thing is about, um every case, every matter that we're involved in is about teamwork and it's about um learning, solving problems, finding solutions, being creative, going to your, your thought about art, about being creative and it's just, you know, and just always trying to be better, you know, you know, trying to be better and think. Well, what could we do better? What have we learned from this? What can we learn from this? And, you know, and it's actually interacting with so many people over the years who've become such dear friends, you know, we started working together from lots of different jurisdictions and I'm blessed to count so many people in many jurisdictions now as personal friends. So that is a very truncated question- answer rather to your incredibly incisive question. And thank you for being the first podcast guest to have turned the tables on me. So, uh but no, thank you very much. I really enjoyed this uh Cyril and I look forward to seeing you very soon and I wish you all continued success in everything. You know, I'm, I'm going to end this podcast in the way that I, that I opened it, which is that you are a, apart from being an incredible person, you are an absolute legal legend and you've set the benchmark for so many of us all around the world by what you've achieved and what you continue to achieve and what you stand for. So, thank you very much for that too, Cyril and I'll see you very soon.

Cyril: Thank you Gautam you've been very kind. Thank you.

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